Ep48 Christopher Healy & Danan Tsan, The Mindset & Human-Centered Leadership: Leadership Development Podcast

HOST: Ovi Vásquez is a nationally recognized bilingual leadership keynote speaker who inspires audiences at education conferences, corporate summits, and association events. A #1 Amazon bestselling author and TEDx speaker, Ovi draws upon his journey from working as a child farmworker in the sugarcane fields of rural Guatemala to working for some of Silicon Valley’s leading companies.

Through his story, he delivers a powerful message of resilience, leadership, and purpose. Speaking in English and Spanish, he specializes in youth leadership, first-generation student empowerment, and developing values-driven leaders across education, business, and communities.

GUEST BIO:  Christopher Healy and Danan Tsan, leadership consultants and executive search professionals dedicated to helping colleges, universities, and mission-driven organizations identify transformational leaders. Christopher transitioned from a successful banking career to help grow his family’s search firm, while Danan brings a unique background in music, languages, communication, and organizational leadership. Together, they combine transparency, relationship-building, and service to help institutions strengthen leadership pipelines and organizational excellence.

Find our guests at:

Chris Healy: linkedin.com/in/christopher-healy-2a151696

Danan: linkedin.com/in/danan-tsan-5713419

Find our host at: https://www.ovinspires.com

Leadership Development Keywords: executive leadership, servant leadership, talent acquisition, leadership development, communication, transparency, trust building, organizational excellence, higher education leadership, relationship management 

Leadership Development Summary: In this episode, Christopher Healy and Danan Tsan share how leadership is built through trust, communication, and service. Christopher explains why great leaders measure success by the growth of others and how transparency creates long-term credibility. Danan reflects on how music taught her collaboration, listening, and adaptability. Together, they reveal why authentic relationships, honest feedback, and empowering others are essential for leadership success in education, business, and nonprofit organizations. 

10 Takeaways on Leadership Development
✅ Success is measured by the growth of others
✅ Communication builds trust
✅ Transparency strengthens credibility
✅ Listening is a leadership skill
✅ Collaboration outperforms competition
✅ Honest feedback accelerates growth
✅ Set expectations clearly
✅ Leadership requires adaptability
✅ Relationships create long-term impact
✅ Service is the foundation of influence 

5 Titles for Leadership Development
✅ Leadership Through Trust and Transparency
✅ Why Great Leaders Develop Other Leaders
✅ Communication Is the Ultimate Leadership Skill
✅ Building Relationships That Last
✅ Success Is Helping Others Succeed 

5 Sound Bites for Leadership Development
🗣 “The success of those around you defines your own success.”
🗣 “Come in with open eyes, open ears, and an open heart.”
🗣 “Trust is built through honesty.”
🗣 “Leadership is knowing when to lead and when to follow.”
🗣 “Clear expectations create better outcomes.” 

10 Chapters on Leadership Development
00:00 – Meet Christopher Healy and Danan Tsan
03:00 – Defining Leadership Through Service
06:00 – Career Journeys and Leadership Lessons
11:00 – Taking Risks and Embracing Growth
13:00 – Music, Communication, and Leadership
18:00 – Building Trust Through Relationships
26:00 – Honest Feedback and Candidate Development
28:00 – Learning Through Mistakes
35:00 – Creating Leadership Excellence
53:00 – Final Leadership Messages 

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Leadership Culture podcast
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Organizational leadership podcast
Professional Development podcast
Change Management podcast
Corporate leadership podcast
School leadership podcast
Top Leadership podcast for managers
Building High-Performance Teams podcast

 Find our host at: https://www.ovinspires.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Leadership Messengers Podcast. I am your host, Ovi Vasquez. Born and raised in Guatemala with no electricity, now bringing you experts to help you develop our next generation of values-driven leaders. People can really develop their own leadership skills by My advice to everyone I've talked to in that capacity that wants to put themselves forward in the best possible way is to Welcome to Leadership Messengers, where we bring you experts to help you develop our next generation of values-driven leaders. Today's guests are extremely special, is a tag team, so this is going to be very versatile. Mr. Chris Haley is a higher education leadership and faculty recruitment specialist and co-founder of SHNA. His firm works exclusively within higher education, bringing deep expertise in shared governance, faculty and staff culture, accreditation needs, and institutional mission. Chris leads with a family-driven approach, building a company culture rooted in integrity and personal connection. Candidates who have worked with SHNA consistently describe the experience as a communicative, respectful, and human. Chris joins the show to share about his expertise, his story, and insights with you. Dana San is a higher education leadership and faculty recruitment professional with SHNA. She brings a rare combination of artistic depth and organizational leadership to her work. Her background as a musician shaped how she listens, collaborates, and leads skills that translate directly into high stakes for the world of academic search and institutional culture. Dana joins the show to explore the surprising connection between musical training and effective leadership and why the best leaders know how to follow the rhythm of their people around them. Everyone, let's welcome Ms. Dana and Mr. Chris to the show. Hi, everyone, how are you today?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Hey, doing great.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, we're doing well. You're able to join. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. So let's dive in and alternate the answers for the first question. Please, let's begin with the ladies first. Dana, in your own words, what does leadership mean to you and who do you currently serve?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I think leadership means to me sharing insights based on experience, building relationships, and supporting others through their career journey. And the people that I support are the institutions themselves who are our clients, but also the candidates who are trying to get these positions at higher education institutions.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I love it. Now, Chris, please share with us in your own words what does leadership mean to you and who do you currently serve?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

To me, it's about removing barriers for the people that do the work for us. And I find the most value in that work assisting people around me do their work better. And I think that's it, that's one of the aspects.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Dana, please help us understand when you were growing up, who were some of the leaders that you looked up to that inspired you and shaped you into you have become? Share with us more specifically what leadership traits those people showed case that made you trust them.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

I would say that probably my choral directors in my life have always been my favorite leaders, either in church or in school, from elementary school all the way through college. They always were very passionate about what they do. They were very organized. They had wonderful ways of communicating with us and also listening to us, which was a very good thing for me to see. And um, I just loved the whole opportunity to learn uh how to be a good leader and how to be a good follower from them.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Well, that's wonderful to hear. Now share it with us your experience, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I think some one of the one or two of the qualities are really just about persistence and trusting yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, that's wonderful. And so as you as you transition into getting your ex school or education experience, please share with us, Dana. Was there an educational program that you felt made a positive impact in your life that shaped you into the leader that you've become today?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

In college, I had this wonderful core class that was required that everybody in the entire university take. It uh combined studying history with uh visual art and music and how it all connected and how it all influenced each other. And that actually gave me a lot of insight into the big picture of how things come together and also the attention to detail for the specific things that were happening. I th I just thought it was it, it just absolutely blew my mind.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Oh, that's wonderful. Well, I grew up in Guatemala with no electricity, so coming in as a teenager in the US and getting into my first computer class, that is what blew my mind. You know, have the different experiences. Chris, share with us your experience now that you impact so many people's lives in so many levels. What did you feel was a program in your educational journey that influenced the type of leader that you've become today?

SPEAKER_01 5:26

There wasn't a specific program that I thought back on in moving this question. Really, I think my entire college experience taught me how to take care of myself, how to care for others around me when it was needed. And I think just being on my own consistently, having you manage your own budget, having to manage your own schedule, those things for me, I think taught me how to serve others better, better, myself better, serve our family better as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Well, that's wonderful. And as everyone listening to us, they may be educational leaders or very well corporate leaders because those are our main audiences that listen to us. Dana, can we help everyone understand a picture? How did you grow up? Can you share with us how was your family dynamics growing up? Because oftentimes we have professionals joining our team, and however their childhood was is what shaped the type of uh personality that they have. And so oftentimes that's how we connect with them better. How was your family dynamic growing up, Dana?

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I had a wonderful childhood. I think that we were treated very well. My parents were loving and kind. I think I probably grew up relatively sheltered, but then when I went off to college, they very much encouraged me to explore and test my limits. I went abroad for a semester, which was absolutely life-changing. Um, and then yeah, so I think that that really kind of encapsulates the kind of person I am. I have have a tendency to be a little guarded, but I I also really enjoy taking risks and learning new things, things.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Well, what an enriched experience it is, right? Just to get to go outside of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Now, Chris, how was your family dynamic growing up? I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

And knowing that Dan and I are our brother and sister, your home life was very similar. We were we were cared for. We never needed for anything. Um, and I think that allowed us to become the best versions of ourselves. And I think it was the family unit was central to everything that we did. Um, whether it was traveling on vacation, whether it was just our school life, I think that ultimately that it all came back to the family itself and had a really positive experience uh in my childhood.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

That's fantastic. Yeah, I always like to hear both perspectives because I have a brother and a sister, and we could tell you three different stories, even though we have the same mother. Now, we before we jump into your expertise, let me ask you this question, uh Dana. When you look back into your life, did you ever imagine you were gonna get this far? What has surprised you the most about your life's journey?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

I've had a lot of kind of surprises. My career trajectory has not been a straight line. Obviously, I studied music in college. After I got my master's, I actually joined the military and was in the military for about five years as a musician. Um, but it was a very formative time in my life. I never expected to do that. Then after the military, I moved to New York City and did some freelance work in New York City, which was really fun. And then I met a person who became my husband and we started a family, moved up to central New York, and I was teaching and performing. Um, and then the pandemic hit, and I pivoted again and joined SHNA, and it's been a really wonderful situation for me and my family.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Well, even though there were some uncertain times, uh like the song says, What a wonderful world this would be, it feels like what a wonderful world it is now.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Now, Chris, please help us understand. Did you ever imagine you were gonna get this far? What has surprised you the most about your life's journey? I did not ever envision owning a company or running a company.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

I was on a traditional banking career for many, many years with stability and a corporate paycheck and you know benefits. So I think the biggest surprise for me is that I took the risk that I did because it was a big risk to jump out of what I was doing, to join my father in his firm and then help grow that and develop more people like us to help our clients, help our candidates. And so I think it is a surprise. Um I'm also very pleasantly surprised that my skill set and how I built the company, how we do what we do, really provides exceptional value to a lot of our clients, which come back to us over and over again for more and more help.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Now you exclusively serve higher education, am I correct? Yes. Now let's go back to Dana. Dana, please help everyone understand how does your musical background, how has it contributed to your leadership skills and how you have impacted others on a professional level?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

I feel like my musical training helped me in so many different ways. Not only did it teach me how to listen, it taught me how to communicate, taught me how to speak several languages, which was also extremely uh valuable. It taught me how to collaborate and how to lead when it's my turn to lead and also follow when it's my turn to follow. I I mean I think I learned that through most of my choir experiences, but also just in collaborating because I'm a solo singer, I collaborated with lots of pianists. So figuring out that dynamic was also really interesting. And I think that that has really helped my leadership skills and all of my skills in life, honestly, to be organized and really know how to communicate and how to listen.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Well, let me ask you, how many languages do you now speak?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Well, well, I probably only speak two at this point, but I had to study French, German, and Italian in college. So I can read all three. Um, and then I I can I used to be able to speak French quite fluently because that's where I've spent my semester abroad.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

I was in choir for two years in high school, but uh luckily they didn't put me to sing alone. It was a team effort. Yeah. Let's go back to uh Chris. Chris, share with us your experience leading now your, you know, your in your leadership style in a family-driven company, which is server service-oriented, and it feels like a heart-driven, purpose-driven leadership. But share with us your experience and your strategy as you lead your family company.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

What's important to me is that I recognize that the skill sets that my dad had in success were skills that I also possessed. And then I think naturally Danin possessed, my oldest daughter possesses, and so I think it's what allows us to be as good as who we are. But I also find in leadership you have to trust each person you work with to be themselves and serve their candidates and their clients in a way that they feel is most appropriate. And I found that even though it might be different from my style sometimes, it's still a very effective, they're still very effective at those aspects of their jobs. And so I have to, I I had to learn to trust that it doesn't have to be just my way, that it can be done anyways, and very effective. And not only with the folks that are directly related to me, but also other team members that we brought on board, different styles, different ways of communicating, but they're all effective and they all serve our clients in ways.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

I appreciate the the detail, so it helps everyone see the full picture. Going back to Dana, Dana, you are the BP of uh SHNA, and from your perspective, what would you say are the top three leadership, most important leadership skills or qualities or values or principles that leaders need today in today's world, especially in your company that you do recruitment and you're looking for that valuable person, right? So please share with us your perspective on this.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

A good way of communicating is the second one. And I also feel like building relationships and understanding that not the same thing will work for all people. So a potential flexibility in your approach, I think, is a very good skill to have as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

What about you, Chris? Your perspective as a professional in higher education leadership and faculty recruitment, what would you say are the top three skills that you that you've seen that are the most important for leaders today? Either skills or principles or values.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

One of the values that I've shared consistently with my team, family, with people around me, is that you should not make decisions for other people or make assumptions about what they're thinking, what they're going through, or what may what may motivate them to work with us or work with others. So I I find that early in my career, I would say things like, Well, this person won't want to do this, or this person doesn't will want to do this, and I'm making assumptions and decisions for them. And when I learned that that isn't productive, you need to let them share their emotionality with you and what motivates them to make potential changes and as a candidate or potentially as a client. That has been one of the most important things that I think I've learned that I try to impart in the people around me. And secondly, you don't ever know really what's going on in somebody's life that you know. It could be a good friend, it could be a family member. You really don't know the details of their life. And so you shouldn't try and make assumptions or apply what you've experienced to be valid to what they're going through. So I think those are some key aspects that I found to be very valuable in working with the people the my team, working with candidates, specifically in the marketplace that are looking at our jobs, and also our clients. We can't make assumptions that they're making decisions based upon information that we have.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

So those are some of the things that I found most valuable. Sometimes some people can overlook those things, those factors that really makes a person attractive, that may give them the attractor factor for an organization that could truly gain value from their input and how productive they can be. Let me go back to Dana. Dana, I know as an organization you pride ourselves in gaining deep understanding of shared governance and how the faculty, staff, and culture for your clients and what accreditations they may need for the next person and the institutional mission so that there is alignment. How would you advise organizations can do the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Some of the same things that I talked about at the last question, like listening and curiosity, transparent communication. Um, I think leading by example is also very, very important. You can't ask other people to do things that you're not willing to do yourself, I believe. Yeah, I I think that um um that people can really develop their own leadership skills by listening to others and by really kind of following along with people that they admire and what they're doing and how they're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Chris, what are your thoughts on this? Because most people are goal getters, and it seems like you are a goal giver in terms of like you go into deep understanding of what it is that the culture needs and what it is that the culture uh may be missing, so that you find the right candidate. And then in the process, the candidates feel that the whole process is very communicative, respectful, and human. So, how do you make that happen? And hopefully your insight helps our helps our listeners understand how they can make an experience like that happen in their organization.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

I think Danan's right about listening, about paying attention, about letting people tell their story. One of the important aspects of most of our clients' experiences is that we visit their campus in support of the work that we do for them. So we spend a full day immersed in their culture, in the people that work there, with faculty, with staff, with leadership, we get tours of campuses. We spend time in the day before and the day after within their communities as a whole. Because it's not just what we do about the institution only, it's about the community that this person is going to be joining as they relocate for these new opportunities. Because the majority of the candidates that we work with will be moving them and their whole family to take on these new opportunities. So being present on campus, being present in the meetings, asking the right questions, and listening to what they say, and then building a narrative to share with folks in the marketplace about what we saw first person, who we met with, what was the culture, what are the challenges, what are the opportunities. I think those are some of the things that allow us to do an effective job for our clients and for our candidates because it is a transparent view, and then what we're sharing with them is things we've seen and experienced. So they're so I think they're more real, but I think it builds a better trust factor with candidates and with clients. So that's really um something we that is valuable to us.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So that that is extremely valuable. Like it should be the the golden, the golden standard uh feels like to me. Going back to Dana, Dana, so as I understand, even the candidates that are not selected to work with the organizations that you serve, they still walk away feeling valued throughout the entire experience. How does a listener that is a leader in their organization build a culture where everyone that comes in contact with their team members also walk away feeling valued and understood and that they that that it was a great experience? How do you build that?

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Well, we we try to build relationships with our candidates, the same as we build them with our our clients. Um, we try to find out where they have been, where they are now, where they want to go. We also try to to do extremely consistent communication so that if we give them a deadline and we can't meet that deadline, we tell them before the deadline comes that you know there's gonna be a little bit longer, you know, so so that they always feel like they're informed and that they're valued and that we value their time and that they have a good experience throughout this process because applying to a new job can be extremely stressful, very onerous process. And we just want to try to make it as well, as pleasant as it can be. I'm not sure if anybody would ever describe it as pleasant, but we we try to make it a little bit more fun than it could be, and try to take some of those nitty-gritty details off their plate.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

One of the things I love overall about this is that you're running your father's legacy, and now even uh Chris, even your daughter works with you and the team, you know, then and your sister, it's a it's a dynamic that I describe it as beautiful. Chris, it feels to me throughout the interview, even on both answers here that I get from each one of you, it feels like this is an overarching theme of excellence, whether you're talking to a client or you're talking to a candidate, and even those that walk away not getting an opportunity that they they were preparing for. How do you foster a culture of excellence?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

I try and demonstrate it as often as I can um for my team, for our candidates, you know, for our clients. And I think the results that we have speak to that excellence model. You know, we we we are in excess of 99.5% of the time, we are successful with our search contracts, which I think allows us to share that metric with clients or potential clients very productively, very honestly, because as I share with them, it doesn't mean that every search went exactly as we hoped our commitment to that is that we are going to complete the search. Regardless, we're and we have our commitment to to work it through until it's complete. But I think what I want to echo is what Dana said too about working with candidates that don't don't get the job. It's really about setting expectations clearly as she shared. It's about communicating very clearly, but it's also about being honest very quickly. You know, if they are chosen, they're not chosen to move forward, we we don't wait a week to share that with them. We we want to be we want to make sure that we can share it with them, and if we can, in certain circumstances, share the reasons potentially why. Here are ways you can potentially improve. Here are some things that they saw in your interview that just you didn't set them apart as much as some other folks. So here's what we can work on for the future. Because even though only one person wins, for lack of a better word, at the end of these searches, we have placed, I've placed many candidates throughout my career that were the second or third shorts from a previous search. And so I think having that positive relationship with them, having them trust us, know we're going to be honest with them, I think allows that when they're right for something else, that we can deliver on that for them as well. I think that they're willing to work with us over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Dana, what is your take on fostering leadership excellence within our organization?

SPEAKER_02 23:13

I'm glad you asked me that question too, because I really wanted to highlight something that I've learned specifically from Chris. Early in my career with SHNA, I made a quote mistake. And so obviously there's different versions of what kind of mistakes you can make. But when those things have happened, what he had did for me was tell me, yes, this stinks. This didn't go the way that it probably should have gone, right? Right. But I want you to think about this for one day. And I want you to think about how you can do this better in the next time. And then I don't want you to feel bad about this anymore. There's no no reason to beat yourself up. So just move on, learn from this, and and let's bring, you know, the next steps into the sunlight, right? So that's I think a great way how to foster excellence is to own, you know, be encourage people to own their mistakes, but also there's no need, no need to dwell on them. Everybody makes mistakes. We're all human. And that's how, you know, that's why we treat our candidates like they're human beings, because they are. Uh, and we understand you know, how to receive constructive criticism, what to internalize, and what to let go of that one.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Let me ask you this question also, because I think it's gonna be of lots of value to our listeners. How can candidates make themselves be seen so that they are easily findable by professionals like yourselves that are looking for them to pair them up with the right opportunities? Let's begin with uh Danan.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Uh, I think a presence on LinkedIn is very important. I also think that, you know, a a good bio and all of their credentialing information on their institutional website is going to be very important as well. That's how we find our candidates. That's how we make connections and build relationships, knowing what the background of the person is that we're looking for. And so that's how we find them.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Chris, what is your perspective on how potential candidates can dust off whatever they need to dust off and bear, prepare themselves so that they can look their best? What's your advice for professionals to make themselves uh seen in foundable or findable if that's the right word?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Again, as Dana shared, we we do a lot of proactive outreach to folks. I think if they have current materials, as well as not only just your their professional connection, but a little bit about themselves, you know, personally, I think it's also just again makes it makes them more human. Over the past actually several years at this point, there are a lot of people that reach out to me and they're looking ready to make a change in their own job, their own life job-wise. And so even though our clients are the universities and colleges that we work with, I still take time to connect with these individuals, even if it's not specific to a job that we're working on. Because I want to best understand their what they're looking for, what is important to them in their own career path, what locations can make sense to them so we can be specific when we reach out. Um, but more importantly, what I offer to them is that you know the traditional way of looking for if they're looking for something new or looking for a new job and setting themselves apart is typically they will they will surf the job boards and they will they will apply and they will be part of a larger pool, which is a traditionally effective way to find work. But it's difficult to set yourself apart from a larger group of people, even if your materials are somewhat creative and unique and your background is is is potentially ideal for what they're doing, you're still in the in a much larger group. So my advice to you I've talked to that wants themselves forward in the best possible way, right? Is to pick seven, nine, eleven institutions that you think would be great to work for. You know, just proactively figure out I want to work for these, I think these places would be really a great place to work. And then find a leader in your area in those institutions and reach out proactively and honestly, that you are open to new opportunities. Here's who I am, here's a copy of my C or my resume. I was hoping to have a conversation with you about opportunities that may be available at your institution. And I think in most people attribute that, I didn't even think about doing it that way. I just always just wanted to apply to jobs that were out there already. And I've had at least three circumstances in which someone's life was changed in a very positive way because they made that step and they and they were proactive and they reached out to someone, even though there wasn't a job listed, but ultimately it worked out that they were able to start a connection, and in two circumstances, they got hired one of the places they reached out to. So I think looking at these, looking at your job search differently than everyone else can also set you apart with people. It can build your networks, you can meet new people you've never met before. And even if your success is an immediate, maybe a year down the road, they're somewhat like you, and maybe they reach out at that point and then the connection makes sense then too. So I think that is that's an important aspect of this. And also that your application documents are should be living documents, right? For every opportunity you look at and work on, it should be very, you should modify each of those documents to that specific opportunity. Because there are a number of times we get something that says, Dear hiring recruiter, I'm I am applying for and then they literally you see them cut and paste the job that they're talking about, or they get the the name of the company wrong sometimes. So we share those proactive ideas with candidates, so hopefully they pay attention to the details, and then as they put themselves forward, it's always the best version of themselves.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

I appreciate the detailed answer because this is applicable to any industry, to anyone who may be looking forward to putting their best self out there and not finding an opportunity, right? And I can attest in my own experience that everything you just shared right now on your strategy, it's worked for me because that's what I did. And I ended up working for Apple, then Tesla, then Salesforce, then Uber. And I was being recruited without even applying for jobs. So um, and here we are now doing these podcasts where I get to speak to with to find individuals like yourselves. And who knows, maybe in a moment you'll think you'll think to yourself, we need a creative person like Ovi, man. Let's talk to him and see what how he can help us in some way, shape, or form. And I grew up in Guatemala with no electricity, coming to the US not knowing how to use computers. So that shows, so it shows by behavior, right? When a person is proactive, creative, and keeping open mind, continuously and they execute. Because at this point, three months doing this at these podcasts, nearly 50 interviews, that's a lot of productions to do. And so just to give everyone the solid point that everything that you're saying, and I don't need to approve of your message, but I'm just saying I'm a testimonial that everything you're saying, it's what I've applied, and it's worked out so wonderfully. Now, let's go back to Dana. As a last question for this section of the interview, share with us how do you leverage your musical background in creative ways to contribute to the leadership skills and the leadership styles that you leverage on a day-to-day basis so that you all create this wonderful experience for both your clients and the candidates, which at this point I feel like they're both your clients because you're giving service and value to both of them. But um, I know you love to talk about your musical background. So give us uh your last ideas on this.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

I I think that um my musical background has really helped me in so many different ways, um, not only with communication and listening skills, but also with leadership and developing my uh backbone to advocate for myself as well. In freelance music, you have to do exactly what Chris said is really put yourself out there. There's a lot of rejection, there's a lot of um uh constructive criticism, there's a lot of unconstructive criticism. So, you know, figuring out how to navigate those kind of rocky waters is really a good skill for any leader to have. Um, you know, in understanding like what a musical like private lesson is like, it literally is constant criticism. Like I would sing something and my teacher would tell me what I did wrong, also what I did right, but also what I can do better. So I think bringing that into the leadership space is exactly what I want to do with all of the people that I interact with with.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

I love it. And Chris, please share with us for the last question in this section of the interview. When prospective clients are thinking of engaging in in finding their candidates with your company, what can they expect as a discovery period and then going through the process to a final hiring period? What does that process look like with um SHNA?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

So we are very reactive and proactive with our clients as they have needs that they reach out to us for. As I share, we do a lot of the work with clients that have already worked with us before. So they have a sense of what that process looks like. But really, we provide a very efficient, quick, informative process when it comes to discovery about the work that we've done in the past in these different areas for them, what they can expect from us, why we think we need to set ourselves apart, why we think we're the best partner we can be for this for these specific searches. And it is it's borne out through our successes in all the different areas that we serve. But I think most importantly is that we're able to turn these things around uh within within less than a day for a proposal and some creative material for them and really be able to share with them and show them that we're reacting we react quickly to them, that we are proactively going to put things out there that are gonna be effective for them. And then we are also we try and be very, very clear about every aspect of it. Certainly what we do well, what the what their investment is is very important, always a big question. What's the timeline for putting these things together? And so we've done this a long time, and so we have a good sense of how long these things take, how we can set expectations properly uh with them as well. Sometimes higher ed doesn't move as fast as we would like from a decision-making perspective, from from how they go through their search processes. And and so for us, it's about helping them understand a sense of urgency, and that we can help them deliver that for candidates and for their and certainly for their constituents as well. So I think that process of just efficiency, a very responsive process to their needs, and also tailoring everything we do to us to their specific needs as well. It's not just a cookie cutter or a single approach or where the highly kind of approach that as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I definitely understand that part of the bureaucracy in the process sometimes, because I myself I serve the educational institutions throughout the country as a keynote speaker doing leadership trainings at either their conferences or at their local sites. And oftentimes it's that timeline of the paperwork and everything else that has to do with the whole process, right? But hey, they call it work for a reason. Yes. Now, Dana and Chris, we have some rapid-fire questions where we ask you a question, you give us your first thought that comes to mind. Should be quick, should be fast, but should be fun. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 34:56

We're ready.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Dana, what's an accomplishment you're super proud of?

SPEAKER_02 35:01

I think probably one that I'm very proud of is my military service. I never expected to join the military, and I actually had a very, very good time, had a great experience. I'm really glad I did it. I'm also really glad I'm not doing it anymore, but uh but it was great when it was going on.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

And thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Chris, I'm very, very proud of the people, the the great people that my kids have become and continue to become. Um I think it speaks to my wife and I and our approach to unconditional love and support and letting them be who they are and letting them make mistakes, except them. But I think really watching them grow and become the best version of themselves has been very, very rewarding. Um, I have three daughters, they're 27, they're 24, and they're 17. So we've been through a lot together, but I'm just really, really excited about who they are.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

You are very blessed as a whole family. And please share with us maybe one to three books that you recommend every leader should check out at least once in their life.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

All right. I think for people who identify as female, I think something called Take Back Your Brain by Carl Loenthile would be a great book to read. It talks a lot about the kind of systemic things that we learn as little kids and then how to break those habits as we grow older and grow into ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Love it. Chris? Most of the reading that I do is is recreational because I enjoy it. I enjoy the authors, I enjoy the content, I enjoy a lot of fiction. And I think that's important that you spend time maybe not on work or not even trying to attribute. I think it's important you can just spend time enjoying what you enjoy, type of books. But but specifically, there's a book that I enjoyed called Think Like a Monk. It's by Jay Shetty. His family hoped he would be a surgeon or a lawyer or something else or a doctor. Uh, and he decided he would go train in Tibetan and become a monk. And so he shares how to live every day in tetra and with purpose and to serve others, really more importantly. So I haven't made it all the way through it. I found a lot of really cool stuff in there so far. I'm reading it. And then there's a series that I read that are is really enjoyable. And it's it's autobiography in some sense, but it's all creatures graded small by James Harriet, which is also a show on PBS. I think it's season seven now. But in today's society, for the you know, your your quick memes and all these things, these books are about human spirit and you know how you can pursue or how important animals are in the lives of folks that lived in in this period of time back in um in Scotland. So I think I find those books to just be a really positive affirmation of how good life can be, lessons that people learn every day. And it's just it it's so well written, it's such an enjoyable way to spend time. And I've read each there's four or five of them in total. I think I've read each one two or three times.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

You know it's a good one when you reread it again. Now, Dana, what is one of your top leadership or inspirational quotes?

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Every failure is the next step to success, is probably one of my favorite ones. And I'm paraphrasing, I've heard it said by a number of different people, but I absolutely live by that rule.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Love it. Love it. Thank you for that. Now, Chris. Every no is a step closer to the next yes. That's one of my favorite ones. As you both know, AI has become integrated integrated into most people's lives today. Danan, if you leverage AI, what's your go-to AI tool?

SPEAKER_02 38:42

I have toyed with Chat GPT. It's pretty useful. Don't love having to use it, but I think it's a very useful tool.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah, I feel like it gave me superpowers. Chris, do you leverage AI?

SPEAKER_01 39:00

I do leverage the G, the what's it, the G Suite. We use Gmail as our as our email platform, and I do find that some of the tools in there have been very helpful. And on occasion, I have gone to the Chat GPT and I've messed a little bit with Claude, the newer one I've seen out there, but primarily I try and generate a lot of more content on my own. I do recognize that there are other resources out there that can be helpful.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Indeed. As you both know, mentorship can oftentimes be the shortcut to success in almost any field. Dana, if somebody needed a mentor, where would you advise they can find one?

SPEAKER_02 39:36

I think there are places you can find a good mentor. Going to conferences, I think, is a great place within your institution if there's someone there that you like and admire, or even outside of your institution, someone that you have followed for a little while and want to engage with a little bit more and learn from. And you know, that it says everything about getting out of your comfort zone and really reaching out to people who you don't necessarily have a relationship with yet, and uh hoping that they will take you under their wing.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Chris, I think people find mentors in some of the most surprising places. It could be a family member. I've taken mentorship from Dana and from Katie, my daughter, and certainly from my parents. I think there can be friends of yours that that can be, depending on the scenario, can provide expertise and mentorship along those lines. And then professionally, like Dana said, just people that you trust and that you you think are good people that you want to learn from. I think asking them to do that for you, right? Being open to asking for help, being open to ask for guidance, and then accepting that guidance and then moving forward in productive ways and taking steps to make any changes that you think would be most appropriate within your own, you know, either personal or professional life.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Dana, if you have discovered a life-changing hack, please share with us that one hack that you would teach to someone you deeply cared about.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

I think that my most important life-changing hack was prioritizing my free time and then calendaring it and then learning how to really calendar everything else and be very efficient with that. I can't stand when people are late. I can't stand myself when I'm late. I always want to be on time, I always want to be prepared. Um, you know, but I think understanding that um downtime is equally as important as work.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

I remember when one of my friends asked me, you mean to tell me you're always on time to everywhere? I said, Well, why would you do it any other way?

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

So I connect with that.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Chris, I think Dana's point about personal time and boundaries is really, really valuable. And I think it's also about prioritizing your own mental health, taking care of yourself both physically and mentally. So every day you feel and know that you're putting forth your best efforts. You can't always do that. You're not always feeling the best, you're not always in the best mood. But I think it's helpful to pause and recognize kind of where you are in that space. As I shared before this podcast, I've been so nervous. This is not my I this is not my favorite thing to do, but I really enjoy this. But ultimately, you just have to just sort of take a deep breath. You have to recognize that going out of your comfort zone is a really valuable tool, and you have to you have to embrace it. I love it. How's the experience so far?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

It's been it's been very rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Yes. Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

I love it. Last two questions, and we'll finish strong. Dana, as you know, music is what most people love, and I know you do too now. What are your one, two, three songs that make you come alive?

SPEAKER_02 42:47

So I absolutely love Billie Eilish. So I think Happier Than Ever by Billy Eilish is one of my favorites. And dating myself, Zombie by the Cranberries makes me crazy. It makes me so excited. I want to sing, I want to dance. Yeah, and I I think, you know, kind of to go back to your last question, like I think savoring the the really kind of best things about life, which are, you know, your relationships with your family and your friends, music, food, you know, the things that you enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Wow. I am uh perplexed because I play this song zombie to my kids, and I tell them I I speak to my kids only in Spanish, but I tell them in Spanish I say to them, I said, I'm gonna teach you the good music since you are little, so that way you appreciate it when you're older. And I play to them the cranberries.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

I think it's very important to expose kids to the music that you grew up with. I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Big time, big time. Chris, please share with us one, two, three songs that make you come alive.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

So very recently, Struck by ACDC is one of my absolute favorite songs. There is so much energy. It is just it is a very, very I love it. It just really to me, every time I hear it, I have to print it. Um, and also um in several dances that my kids have been in, they've used a version of Thunderstruck, not the actual version, but uh oh, I can't think of a word.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Or a cover.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yeah, a cover or a ballet version of it. It's yeah, or or the the the two the two piano guys that do it. It's just so I I I think that's pretty many different ways. I think that's really helpful. And my my current Pandora channel is YouTube. So I'm getting a lot of I love YouTube music. A lot of the 80s and 90s are mixed in there. And also yesterday I heard Patience about Guns and Roses, and that song always always gets me going.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Oh man, it reminds me when I was in high school wearing a leather jacket, and people thought he's a rock uh fan. Uh I would be rock and rolling too. And I understood none of the words because at that point I did not speak English yet, but I just get lost in the rhythm, you know. So I love it. I love it. Last question of the day. What's your favorite snack?

SPEAKER_02 45:04

It's gotta be hummus.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

It's gotta be hummus. Love it, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Sounds like an ad line right there. You should probably market that.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

I'm gonna go less healthy. Typically, donuts or whoopee pies are probably one of my favorite snaps of all time.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Gotcha. Well, as they say, life is short and unpredictable, right? So you've gotta have something you enjoy first. But Danan does make the best hummus I've ever had. So she, yeah. I would live with her hummus every day. Loves it so much that she decided, you know what, I'm gonna make the very best I can possibly taste. That's nice. Now, um there must have been a question that I should have asked to both of you, but I didn't ask. And you wanted to share something particular with the world. Please take the opportunity now, beginning with Dana, share what is your leadership message with the world.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

My leadership message with the world. I think my leadership message to the world would be come in with open eyes, come in with ears ready to receive, and with an open heart.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Fantastic. Chris, what is your lit your leadership message to the world?

SPEAKER_01 46:15

I think the success of those around you defined your own success. And I really I try and live that every day by making the people around me better and as successful as they'd like to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

I love the servant leadership in that. Well, everyone, it's been such a pleasure to hear all the inspiration you shared throughout with the expertise blended in it. It's truly been a pleasure. Everyone, you have listened to Miss Dana San and Christopher Healy. And I am Ovi Vasquez. This is Leadership Messengers, where we bring you experts to help you develop our next generation of values driven leaders. See you on the next episode. Goodbye for now. Thank you for being part of our community. Who is a leader you believe should be interviewed in our podcast? We would love to hear your thoughts about it and interviewing the leaders that you admired most. See you on our next episode.